Doubting Bro

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Posts by Doubting Bro

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  50

  elders testify

  by isaacaustin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/pe_news_local_d_faith11.41dc684.html

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  Doubting Bro

  Unless it has been changed in the last year, the procedure in the US is the same as quoted above.
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  63

  My wife is thinking AT LAST!!!!!

  by tooktheredpill in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey guys!.

  i can't wait to tell you something that happened last night.

  in order to understarnd it, let me give you some details about me first: i'm still an elder, with my wife and the whole family and friends inside the borg.

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  Doubting Bro

  TTRP,

  Congrats! I'm inspired by your "encouraging experience" and am planning on having a serious discussion with my wife regarding the latest generation change this weekend.

  I saw your other thread about another family member (did you say sis-in-law? sorry, it slipped my mind). I think many times, we (at least I am) are afraid of what the reaction may be and automatically think the worst. However, as you've shown, letting people know at their own pace is the key to get folks thinking.
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  50

  elders testify

  by isaacaustin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/pe_news_local_d_faith11.41dc684.html

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  Doubting Bro

  http://www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080416/NEWS08/80416002

  Closing arguments begin today

  Closing arguments today in Murrieta molestation trial The Desert Sun wire services

  Closing arguments are due to get under way today in the case of a man accused of molesting two underage sisters in Murrieta.

  Gilbert Simental, 49, is charged with three counts of lewd acts with a child under 14 and an allegation that multiple victims were involved.
  
  He faces 45 years to life if convicted on all charges, according to Deputy District
  Attorney Burke Strunsky.
  
  Another case involving a third girl has not yet come to trial.
  
  Simental's alleged crimes came to light when the mother of two girls approached school officials and said her daughters were molested by the defendant.
  
  The older of the two sisters testified last week that the defendant first touched her during a pool party and sleepover at his Murrieta home.
  
  She and her sister were friends with the 49-year-old defendant's daughter, who was
  about the same age as the younger girl.
  
  The girls' family and the defendant's family belonged to the same Jehovah's Witnesses congregation in Murrieta.
  
  The girl said Simental touched her thighs as the children played in his pool and then again later that night while she was on an air mattress in his living room. She said she awakened to find him lying next to her on the mattress.
  
  ``He was just touching my legs and stuff,'' she testified.
  
  The child said she protested but the defendant just said ``shhh'' andcontinued.
  
  ``I didn't really get it,'' she said. ``It made me feel weird, so I knew it was wrong.''
  
  The girl said she turned over on her stomach in the hopes that the defendant would go away, but he continued touching her.
  
  ``I turned and he just wouldn't stop,'' the girl said.
  
  Simental allegedly touched the child over her clothes and under her bra and pajama shorts.
  
  The mother of the sisters testified that both her daughters told her in July 2006 that they had been touched by the defendant.
  
  She said she didn't call police but did call church elders.
  
  The woman also told a teacher about the alleged molestation, and school officials called police.
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  8

  Teachings re: "this generation" (Matt. 24: 34 bzw. Luk. 21: 32)

  by bennyk in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history:.

  the battle of armageddon pp.

  603-605. but understanding genea here, as elsewhere, to mean generation,.

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  Doubting Bro

  BTTT - I plan on using this as a basis for discussion with my wife this weekend. This will be the first WT study I've "studied" for in quite some time. I want to make sure that she understands all the different changes on this one yet very important piece of doctrine.

  Great research, thanks!!
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  6

  Catholic Church has paid out over 2 BILLION.......

  by nomoreguilt in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  on the abc evening news tonight, it was said that the catholic church has paid out over $ 2 billion in settlements to over 5,000 victims of sexual abuse by priests.

  do you suppose that perhaps the wtbts will approach that figure?

  either in payouts or in the number of cases that are reported??.

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  Doubting Bro

  Lets see, roughly 1 billion Catholics and 2 billion in payouts = $2 for every single Catholic. Roughly 7 million JWs and around 14 million in the most recent payout (rounding up slightly but not including other smaller payouts), so $2 for every single JW.

  I would guess that JWs will probably pass up Catholics on a per member basis soon since many of the Catholic cases have been handled yet there are still many JW cases in the pipeline.
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  63

  3 a.m. - my wife is in tears! What do I do?

  by The Scotsman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well my situation has developed a bit, any advice appreciated.. their has been a gradual building up of pressure ever since i stood down as an elder about 6 months ago.. i have been telling my wife about my doubts but have continued to attend "some" meetings.. as time has progressed i have become more open with my criticism of the org.. i mentioned the un scandal, molestation trials, false prophecy ect etc.. interestingly she does not deny these facts and yet still wants to continue as a jw.. i told her that god is not happy with people knowingly being part of a false prophet (deut 18 - etc) - starting to lay the groundwork for my exit.. she appreciates the difficult situation doubters are in - they cannot openly express their feelings for fear of jcs.. anyway, a few weeks ago we moved house which meant changing congregation.. but i felt it would be best if i did not attend meetings " at all" at the new cong so my fade could be easier.. but i could not have predicted my wifes response - when i told her it was an explosion of emotion, i mean real heartbreaker stuff.. she seems depressed at the prospect, perhaps the reality is finally hitting home.. last night, about 3a.m.

  i noticed that she was not in bed.

  i went downstairs and she was sobbing away to herself.. "i can't go to that hall myself!

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  Doubting Bro

  I recall when I first awakened to the fact that the WTS is not God's organization, I was quite depressed. Scotsman, you said that she has doubts? Perhaps she is greiving the loss of the illusion that that WTS is God's organization? If she's not comfortable going to the meetings without you, it seems that she really doesn't believe. I've read this thread with interest since I'm in a similar position (wife in, me a former elder who doesn't believe anymore). No kids makes it easier I think because if you had children, she would be able to try to use them to keep you going to help during the meeting.

  Its a tough call, but it seems since you're in a new place and were already well on your way to fading, it would be the ideal time to fade. Like others have pointed out, once you start at the new place, it will be difficult to fade. Especially if the BOE realizes you were an elder 6 months ago. If you never go, they will completely write you off immediately. If you go, they will have an obligation to "shepard" you.

  One question, who really wanted to move? If it was you, she could say that you moved her to draw her from the truth.
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  34

  JW Secret Police

  by outofthebox in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i heard about a special group inside the organization.

  its sole purpose is to find and judicialy process disidents (or apostates as they called them).

  have you heard of such secret police before?

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  Doubting Bro

  I've heard of COs that were specifically sent to certain circuits to "clean-up". In at least one instance, I've seen these "enforcer" COs take on some pretty powerful elders (city overseers with GB connections and the like). I've also seen these guys transfer local elders into congregations that need "help" (read - help in complying with the WTS guidelines). But, I've never heard of an arrangement where the WTS sends individual elders to certain spots. Quite frankly, I doubt there are that many that the WTS would even trust. Plus, if they did trust them, there's no way a person would keep quiet about being on the JW version of the SS. Talk about a "privilege".

  Isn't the CO enough?
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  16

  Further Education - WTS ups the pressure

  by dozy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the wts are upping their opposition to further education.. at our recent co visit , much of a talk on youth concerned the evils of college & university education.. the meeting of the elders & ms included a similar but harder line section , stating that the appointed men should set an example.

  the question was raised does an elder continue to qualify for his privilege if he , his wife , or his child goes to further education.

  what attitude is he showing regarding the fds stated view on this matter?.

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  Doubting Bro

  Interesting, but not suprising. I thought when the current campaign against higher education started a few years ago, that deleting fathers that supported their kids getting a college education was the next step. They gave them a few years to get the message, allowing those with kids already committed to continue, a grace period of sorts.

  Dozy, was anything said about how going to college would affect young men being considered for privileges? I know that last year, a young man in my old congregation (who I encouraged to go to college when I was an elder there!) was appointed as a MS and he was finishing up his freshman year at the time. I'm thinking that if deleting fathers who "allow" their kids to go to college is coming, then I would think that the CO would block any MS appointments for say a 21 year old college JR even though that young man could be doing everything else to qualify as a MS.
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  16

  The court rulings against WTS will force what changes?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the california rulings on clergy-client privilege have revealed the problems with .

  wt procedure.

  they report to headquarters.

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  Doubting Bro

  I think they're between a rock and a hard place. I've read a little about this case and it seems that one CA circuit court ruled that there is no clergy confidentially in JC cases since the results are not kept confidential and are reported to Bethel if DF'ing punishment is meted out. I also thought that the CA Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal of the lower courts decision, in effect, affirming it. I guess they're pushing this most recent case in a different CA circuit hoping for a different result. My guess is that the other circuit will look at the first circuit's ruling and the Supreme Courts refusal to hear the appeal and rule the same way.

  If that happens, the WTS will need to make 1 of 2 choices.

  1)Recognize that JCs are discoverable and mandate that any elder with knowledge of child abuse MUST report (and not from a pay phone, but a real report). That way, at least they will only have to deal with their previous liability and any elder that doesn't comply will be on their own. Of course, they will have many old cases that will need to be settled which will likely amplify their seemingly current cashflow problem (assuming it exists but since they refuse to report publicly on their financials here in the US, who knows).

  2) Drop the whole JC structure and basically refuse to disfellowship anyone. They can still take confession, but it would be to one designated elder who could offer "forgiveness" and maybe hand out punishment in terms of "restrictions". Anyone given restrictions would then be clued in that something has happened and they should limit their association with that person. Of course, that would be very similar to the Catholic set-up which the WTS has derided for years as being unscriptural.

  My guess is that there is no way they would ever drop disfellowshipping because if they did, they would lose way too many people. They need that threat of cutting a person off from their social circle to be able to keep control. Its really the only stick they have. Also, they risk losing hard core believers who will point to the disfellowshipping process as proof of the "true" religion.

  So, they're really left with #1. But, I think that's going to cost them quite a bundle in the short term because in my opinion, #1 would be an admission that their current policy is deficient and would be used to increase litigation short term. But, of course, #1 should have been the policy the whole time because protecting children from predators should have been a top priority. Its obviously not a priority at all.

  To answer the initial question, yes, court rulings against the WTS are the ONLY thing that will cause any positive change.
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  99

  It is official. I am an elder now!

  by outofthebox in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it happened last night guys.

  i got early to the kh and the boe came to talk to me.

  they ask me to read the bible and asked me a couple of questions.

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  Doubting Bro

  OOTB,

  Well, at least you have some insight as to what you're getting yourself into. I had doubts for a few years but once I allowed myself to think and come to realization that what I had was not "truth", I simply couldn't continue being on the platform every week, conducting a book study, etc. I lasted about a year & a half, before I just couldn't take it anymore and "stepped aside".

  You can duck & weave on the JCs but sometimes you have to sit on one. The last one I sat on the person was just reproved, but it took some convincing to make it happen. I knew I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was part of someone being df'ed (with the exception of a child molestor, then being df'ed would be the least of his concerns because I'd haul him into the cops).

  My advice to you would be to: 1) avoid JCs - you may think you can be a force for good and in some cases you may be, but you can't win them all. And, on the ones you'll lose, you'll have to live with the guilt., 2) Don't let the other elders dump a bunch of work that they don't want to do on you. As a newbie, they'll give you all the jobs they don't want. I'll bet they put you up for 2nd school conductor at the next weeking if they haven't already!, 3) Stay disengaged in the elder meetings. Again, you may win sometimes, but likely you'll lose more than you win. If you pick your battles, you may end up doing a little good. At least, you won't be as frustrated.

  As for the rightness or wrongness of your decision, I really can't judge. I don't think its a big deal because I know that elders are no different than anyone else. No extra holy spirit, no special insight. Many are not even very spiritually minded (other than doing WT works). Many are in it for the perceived power. I think those folks are far worse than someone like you.